Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

I see... Thanks, Thusness :)

Just a sharing. I am full of joy. :)

 

Try not to talk too much about spontaneous arising; before the thorough experience of anatta and the replacement of the core, the center with Dependent Origination, there will be no true understanding of spontaneous arising and effortlessness.

 

Practice hard so that you may come to know that whatever said is only relevant conventionally. Ultimately, everything is alright.

 

How amazing!

 

Homage to Buddha, my Teacher.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

There's this article which I read and think is very good, well written and very practical. It is talks given in retreat, so there is a lot of practical instructions.

The article is about awareness as 'spontaneously arising'. Thusness also thinks that the author is writing from deep non-dual experience and very clear on the experience and understanding of no-self, though the aspect of empty nature arising as Dependent Origination is still missing.

 

The article: http://www.vajraloka.org/docs/pure-awareness.pdf

Another related article, this one I haven't read: http://www.vajraloka.org/tejanandasarticles/Entering%20Pure%20Awareness%20-%208-03.pdf

Yes AEN,

 

Despite all controversies surrounding FWBO, I think this is a good article.  There are just a few points I want to make.

 

Although the article is about the 'spontaneous arising', it is not possible for effortlessness to arise when we treat Awareness to be mirror-like reflecting.  This will become clear only at the later phase of our practice.

 

Even when insight of anatta arises and no-self is experienced, the 'who' may be gone, but still the 'tendency to remain as a center' remains and is taking 'forms' in a very subtle way.  It manifests as the sensation of the 'hereness', 'nowness' and 'this Presence'.  Quickly the 'here and now and presence' becomes the 'goal' of practice.

 

In truth 'here-ness' and 'now-ness' is as inherent as 'selfness' that is equally empty of inherent existence and must be correctly experienced as equally empty (non-inherent) in nature.  Practitioners will have to replace this core with 'dependent orginination' but this need must arise as an insight.  This is the essence of stage 6.

 

The article is also full of dualistic expressions despite his non-dual experiences.  As I have told you before, not to underestimate the impact of the constant chattering in a dualistic manner. If we continuously repeat “phenomenon arises in awareness” and not “as Awareness”, even though there never was a separation, consciousness will see as if there is a separation. Although it may seem to be a casual expression for communication sake, the impact is subtle. In time to come, the slow and subtle impact will make separation appears amazingly real. This is true even for those that have experienced non-duality; they are not spared from it.

 

Lastly never underestimate the strength of the 'bond'.  It is the very reason why we are lost.  The grasping of 'here-ness and now-ness' is also the result of it.  So give equal importance on the aspect that consciousness incessantly creates imprints upon itself and once formed is difficult to break.  Many Advaita as well as Buddhist practitioners that emerge as masters after certain glimpses of our Awareness and its non-dual luminosity often neglect this point.  They got overwhelmed and skewed towards luminosity.  This 'tendency of creating imprints' is as beginless as our non-dual nature, we must see Consciousness as it is. Do take this seriously and there will be no problem understanding why we are lost despite our luminous nature. :)

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

 

Or as Thusness asked, “Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”

No AEN, the purpose is just to have a first glimpse of our luminous nature.  The maturing of this lucid and vivid non-dual experience will lead us to the Advaita Vedenta sort of realisation -- the 'Self'. 

 

This glimpse is completely different from the experience of anatta that

 

There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer

 

I have repeatedly told you that Anatta is not just a non-dual experience, it must be regarded as a dharma seal.  That all along the dichotomy of a observer and observed duality is an illusion created by due to our deeply rooted inherent and dualistic tendency of seeing things. 

 

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

We can 'be' everything because we already are everything, just that we contract into the false sense of an observer due to delusions.

 

It is better understood as a complete sense of 'Oneness' than as 'Everything'. 

 

When we practice not imputing the 'sense of self' on our experiences, we are effectively going through a process of dissolving the 'mental formation' of the five aggregates into direct experiences of the 18 dhatus (the All).  You may want to understand why this leads to liberation and how dispassion or total willingness to let go is generated along the practice; and what has that got to do with our nature.

 

 

First is ‘someone’ is dropping…

 

Second is dropping appears as a mirror reflecting…

 

Third is there is only endless dropping without footing and mental reasoning…

 

Fourth is dropping as vivid wide opening…

 

Fifth is vivid wide opening as everything…

 

Sixth is only Dharma spontaneously manifesting…

 

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Talks by 元音老人: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580

But I don't know which talk did Thusness watched...

Ai yoh... don't over emphaiszed. Told you it is just my opinion.

 

It is at this link http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479

The

心经大意

by 元音老人.

Discern with your own wisdom.  :)

 

 

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Updated my first post a little.

I re-read the updated version.  There is clarity in what you wrote about non-duality.  Well written. :)

 

There are some points and questions you may want to take note:

1.  Dissolving subject-object split is not the same as dissolving the 'inherent view'.  They are 2 different bonds and have different impacts and shape our experience of reality; therefore stage 5 an 6 (although it is not right to put them as stages).

 

2.  If phenomena world is not as what it seems to be -- inherent and dualistic, what is a better way to describe the way things are?

Isn't this 'better way' still a form of conceptualization?  Is it wrong to form concepts? 

 

3.  What does 'getting rid of concepts' in the inherent and dualistic way mean?

 

4.  What does 'getting rid of concepts' by way of  emptiness and non-duality mean?

 

5.  After point question 4, re-look how the inherent and dualistic views affect us.  What happen when these views sank deep down into our inmost consciousness.

 

6.  What happen if the right idea of non-dual and emptiness replaces the dualistic and inherent views?

 

7.  Why stess naked awareness in self-liberation?  Why bare attention in vipassana meditation?  Why go before symbols, labels and concepts?

 

8.  Why not jump straight into non-conceptuality and rest in naked awareness?  Is there a need to first purify our views with the dharma seals and emptiness?

 

U may want to use the answers of these questions to relate it back to the topic article on clear light and voidness.

 

 

Just a sharing. Happy exploring. :)

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Consciousness in the context of Buddhist definition usually means subject-object duality and discriminations.

By that definition, I wouldn't say that that which realises is (dualitic) consciousness, but is pure awareness. Dualistic consciousness transforms into insight/wisdom -- aware of its own nondualistic nature as pure awareness.

In other words, it is not the conceptual mind which apprehends the truth, it is the intuitive mind, the clear light mind, it is luminosity itself which apprehends its two-truth (the inseparability of luminosity and emptiness).

'Intuitive'is just a word use to convey to the conventional mind that the One Reality is beyond any conceptualization, verbalization. There is no two mind.

The professor said: "还没有起意识分别这是什么的时候，它就明明白白看见，这是属于前五识加上意识的现量 ..."

From my understanding the appearance before mental perception is not called识.  As my Taiwanese teacher said something like, 一切唯心所现, 唯识所变。

In my opinion, 一切的呈现即'心',有了彼与此的分别即'识'

Hence, 识 is refering to subject/object duality, and refering to discriminations. Our true nature is present even PRIOR to consciousness/识, prior to 分别/discriminations.

What is Mind/心? It is like a mirror -- everything is just reflected clearly. All reflections is not separated or apart from the mirror, neither are they 'in' the mirror (the mirror is not a separate background), rather all reflections are reflections OF the mirror-mind -- everything is just luminous clarity in nature, with emptiness as its essence. Before a moment of thought/perception, there is just pure awareness -- just the pure sensations, thoughts, without dualistic inference/conceptualisation... at that moment it is simply our luminosity.

Separation is 'learnt'. The phenomena world appears to be filled with isolated objects because of our subject-object dualistic and inherent framework of viewing things. It will not be obvious and the views bond us like a magical spell. The two truth here 'serves' as the antedote for the dualistic mind to 'correctly' understand its nature. This is to prevent the dualistic mind from wrongly identifying and get attached to a particular state as the 'ultimate' state. Do take note that a practitioner can be non-dual and yet still attached to 'inherent existence'. There are two different 'bond' having different impacts shaping the way we experience reality.

A very simple analogy my Taiwan teacher gave was that someone asked him "what is awareness?" -- he poked him with a sharp object, he immediately withdraw his hands. My teacher asked him why did you withdraw? He said "I was in pain!" My teacher then told him, the pain and spontaneous withdrawing is all awareness, luminosity itself, our Buddha Nature, but the "I was in pain" was a dualistic inference/perception/thought. It is a projection, a concept, it is not reality.

So what awakens? It is simply awareness, aware of itself, as everything. It is seeing the subject/object dichotomy as a false mental projection without reality: in reality, sound hears, scenery sees, thought thinks, never was there a hearer, seer, thinker. But this must occur as an insight, a quantum shift of perception into the everpresent nature of reality which is beyond conceptual fabrications and the illusory subject/object dichotomy -- it is not by effort, not by forcefully doing away the thoughts... even mindful awareness is only a practice and a means in aiding the development of insight, but the practice itself is still not the insight into that (non-dual & empty luminosity) as our everpresent nature of reality.

As Thusness said in the other thread: In my opinion strong emphasis should also be place on the idea of why non dualistic and non-inherent view is of such importance for leading one to right view of non-conceptuality. Otherwise the dualistic and inherent mind will fabricate various assumed states of non-conceptuality due to its latent tendencies.  That is to 'transform' a limited view to a boundless views lies not in doing away totally with concepts but simply seeing 'non-inherently'.  'Non-conceptuality' and naked awareness will arise eventually with the stability of this important condition.

One more thing... not just the 6th consciousness must be transformed into wisdom. All 8 consciousnesses must be transformed into wisdom, not just the 6th.

From the experience of no-subject-object to emptiness to the right experience of emptiness of all phenomena existence, a practitioner will be gradually free from labels, symbols, verbalization and conceptualization and fully authenticated in non-dual luminous presence 'as' spontaneous arising.  To me, the idea of emptiness will not remain as a concept for long for a practitioner if non-dual insight (non-dual experience with right understanding) arises.

 Just a sharing.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
leave appearances alone:
The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra.

~ Tilopa

Exactly!

Originally posted by longchen:

Yes, something like that..

Just a sharing...

The most important practice is to learn to drop and 'let go' correctly.

Don't analyse so much... these analysis are all concepts. Dive in without any care!

We will need to 'open up' into the spacious luminosity that have no conceptual thoughts. Here you may notice that you are no longer seeing through the 'physical eye vision'.

If got concept OK... no concept also Ok. Just don't use the will to modify.

Indeed. got or don't have also ok. They are similar to the arising conditions of sound and scenary with the mind as the organ for the arising of mind-consciousness. When sound-consciousness is produced by hitting a bell, being 'silent' is not to be free from the sound of a bell but fully authenticated in the luminous presence in bare with whatever arising conditions. It only becomes a lil more tricky when it comes to concepts because there are more stories. :)

I think the article is very well written. Just a sharing of my opinion:

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

How Voidness Is Known

This is more like creating the necessary condition for knowing ‘voidness’ by first knowing ‘voidness’ conceptually. Perhaps ‘Why’ this is possible is a more important question from a practical standpoint. It relates directly to how consciousness works.

There are two levels of voidness (stong-pa-nyid, Skt. shunyata, emptiness):

1. voidness that is a conceptual construct,
2. voidness that is beyond conceptual constructs.

3. In my opinion, there is no ‘voidness’ that is beyond conceptual constructs. “Voidness that is beyond conceptual constructs” is the direct experience of the Luminosity as the One Reality. Bonded within a dualistic and inherent framework of seeing things, we fail to correctly understand the Emptiness Nature of Luminosity.

    

Voidness, as an absolute absence (med-dgag, nonimplicative negation) of true existence as “this” or “that,” is the conceptual construct or abstraction “there is no such thing as truly existent ‘this’s and ‘that’s.” It can only be known conceptually and is that to which the word or concept “voidness” refers.

Cognizing this level of voidness is a necessary stepping-stone to cognizing definitive voidness, which is beyond all conceptual categories and beyond all words. Although voidness can be referred to by a conceptual construct or word, voidness that is beyond conceptual constructs (definitive voidness) does not correspond to anything a word or concept would correspond to, namely something existing in the fixed box or category of “voidness.”

Thus, the two levels of voidness are not contradictory. It is not that voidness “beyond” is a transcendental level in the sense of being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge, and only accessed through a mystical experience, perhaps gained by the grace of God. It merely means that it is beyond the limits of what conceptual cognition and nonconceptual sensory and mental cognition can cognize.

Voidness as a conceptual construct can only be cognized conceptually. We cognize it conceptually by our mental consciousness giving rise to a mental aspect resembling an empty or blank space, and superimposing or projecting onto it the audio and meaning categories “voidness.” This does not mean, however, that when conceptually focusing on voidness, we necessarily also must have a mental aspect resembling the sound of the vowels and consonants of the word “voidness.” The conceptual cognition of voidness may be nonverbal. Nevertheless, since the mental representations (the conceptual categories) that appear in conceptual cognition are necessarily appearances of true existence, the empty or blank space appears to be a voidness that truly exists in the concrete category “voidness.” The meaning category associated with it, however, is the correct meaning of voidness – namely, the absolute absence of true existence.

Voidness that is beyond concepts can only be cognized nonconceptually, but it cannot be cognized by nonconceptual mental cognition. Nonconceptual mental cognition produces a mental aspect of something not truly existing as a “this” or a “that.” However, voidness that is beyond concepts is beyond all four extremes:

 

1. truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
2. not truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
3. both truly and not truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
4. neither truly nor non-truly existing as a “this” or a “that.”
   Therefore, voidness that is beyond concepts does not cognitively appear as a mental aspect of an empty or blank space that appears to be a voidness in the category of a non-truly existent “ voidness.” 

[See: Affirmations, Negations, and Denumerable and Nondenumerable Ultimate Phenomena.]

 

There are few important points that the above para is trying to convey. First 'non-conceptuality' lies in understanding ‘voidness’ conceptually first. That is, having clarity of the ‘concept of voidness’ is an important condition for the arising of non-conceptuality. This is not separating 'conditions' from the arising of a phenomenon. That is when the propensity to divide is there, understanding conceptually is necessary -- conceptuality leading to non-conceptuality. There are other conditions for prajna wisdom it arise like practicing ‘bare attention’.  Second is the emphasis of a 'void background' is an illusion of the mind rather than a direct experience of 'voidness'. 

 

I think there is a missing link here. In my opinion strong emphasis should also be place on the idea of why non dualistic and non-inherent view is of such importance for leading one to right view of non-conceptuality. Otherwise the dualistic and inherent mind will fabricate various assumed states of non-conceptuality due to its latent tendencies.  That is to 'transform' a limited view to a boundless views lies not in doing away totally with concepts but simply seeing 'non-inherently'.  'Non-conceptuality' and naked awareness will arise eventually with the stability of this important condition. 

 

Only Clear Light Mental Activity Can Cognize Voidness beyond Concepts

Only clear light mental activity can have nonconceptual cognition of voidness beyond concepts, and when it does, it has nonconceptual cognition of the two truths (bden-gnyis) simultaneously.

In this context, the two truths are:

• voidness beyond concepts,
• pure appearances (dag-pa’i snang-ba) – appearances that are beyond impure appearances (ma-dag-pa’i snang-ba).
  

Impure appearances include:

1. appearances of truly existent “this”s and “that”s,
2. appearances of sensibilia, such as momentary collections of patchs of colored shapes, that are not truly existent as “this”s and “that”s.

[See: Divisions, Causes, and Elimination of Unpurified Appearance-Making According to Non-Gelug.]

Cognition of impure appearances resembles “periscope vision,” with which we view reality through a limited perspective, as if through a periscope. We see only what is in front of our noses, seemingly separated and isolated from the state beyond the seemingly solid categories of words and concepts.

Clear light cognition, on the other hand, produces and cognizes appearances of what are beyond truly and non-truly existent “this”s and “that”s. That does not mean, however, that with clear light cognition, everything becomes an undifferentiated oneness. Objects retain their conventional identities. Moreover, clear light mental activity produces and cognizes appearances both of all phenomena and of itself, for instance as a Buddha-figure. Simultaneously, it also cognizes the voidness of them that is beyond words and concepts.

 

This is emphasized because the dualistic mind will fabricate an 'undifferentiated oneness' when the para is phrased that way.  That is why the clarification is necessary.  However the actual experience is beyond speech.

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Regarding "Even the initial insights that we have about non-duality and other stuffs, are also presented as mental concepts."

Thusness told me my (initial) non-dual experiences (though different from realising the nature of reality as non-dual) were the result of summarising what I have learnt... and that when the mind is searching for an answer it stumbles onto the non-dual experience, if I get what he is saying. It's like the mind has the answer subconsciously (through learning of dharma knowledge) even though it is not known in conscious awareness. That is why he told me to continue summarising, and of cos to continue practicing hard so that we can go beyond the conceptual understanding into direct experience.

For non-dual insight to arise, certain conditions have to arise.  Without these conditions, whatever experience will be distorted.  When the conditions aren't there and someone taught u to go beyond symbols and labels, either u will be confused or whatever way or attempt to become non-conceptual/bare/naked awareness will prove futile.

 

As a lay, when you try to un-name/unlabel while your tendency to divide is still strong, u will only attempt to 'will' it off.  That is not the way.

 

Conceptually can also lead to non-conceptuality.  That is the whole purpose of 'Emptiness' as a 'Raft'. :)

 

 

Originally posted by longchen:

mmm.... may not be the same.

IMO,

The way our mind work is that when even in non-dual.. there will be a mental narrative that accompany that experience, that will say ' this is non-dual... blah..blah'. These accompanying mental narrative is conceptualization and thus has no connection to reality.

The same goes for all our experiences... the mental conceptualization accompanies sensory perception and start to do story-telling. This story-telling is devoid of reality and is addictive. Once the story-telling is recognised 'intuitively', they can lose their conditioning power....

Well said. 

 

The phenomena is distorted by the story.  Even a simply labelling and naming has subtle impact to consciousness.  Thus recognizing the strength of the 'spell' is equally important. :)

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

 

 

Only Clear Light Mental Activity Can Cognize Voidness beyond Concepts

 

Only clear light mental activity can have nonconceptual cognition of voidness beyond concepts, and when it does, it has nonconceptual cognition of the two truths (bden-gnyis) simultaneously.

The 'clear light' is the 'luminosity'.  In actuality there is no 'Emptiness' to be cognized beyond concepts for 'Emptiness' is just a 'raft' that exist only in conceptuality.  The purpose is to negate the dualistic and inherent views so that the true nature that is beyond the four extremes can be correctly intuit.  When the mind is still deeply rooted in seeing things dualitically and inherently, it cannot know what is the true meaning of 'non-conceptuality', 'non-abiding'

'no-self' and so on.  Therefore 'Emptiness nature' is taught but in essence it is pathless. 

 

In actual practice there is no 'the pathless path' but when seen by a dualistic mind, there appears to be a 'truly existing pathless path' to be followed.  This is similar to the senario when someone remark that  'everything changes' and we asked 'what about change?'.  The dualistic and inherent mind is quick to objectify and is unable to 'understand' beyond its own dualistic/inherent framework.  When a mind is deeply rooted in seeing things dualistically/inherently, whatever experiences is distorted due to story telling. 

 

Whatever mental activity that is 'this' or 'that' is within the dualistic/inherent framework.  Whatever arising phenomena be it thought, emotion, forms and so on are already the Luminosity itself when without the story telling.  Everything 'already is' and is the One Reality but because of story there appears to be a 'separation' and when 'Emptiness' becomes a story, it fails to serve as the antedote for our dualistic/inherent views.

 

Thus only for the purpose of communication the above quote is written that way; there is only 'Emptiness' to be cognized by a dualistic/inherent mind, no 'Emptiness' to be cognized in true luminosity.   

 

Just a sharing. :)

 

 

More importantly is the question of why is there a separation in the first place.  Why practitioners of all ages see thoughts, sensation...the transience, the impermanence as not our Buddha Nature itself.  Even when told, explained and experienced, how is it that it is not known.  Understanding the power that blinds IMO is equally important. :)

Originally posted by longchen:

Hi Friend,

Just my understanding only. For discussion sake. Also, I find this topic very interesting.

What appears to us are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight sees some thing, the ears hear something, etc ,etc. There are not happening in some place. They are the arising of certain conditions.

To illustrate that what we experience is not standardised, we know that human beings see in term of colour range. Some animals are colour-blind. so they see differently. But none of us, is seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently.

Likewise, the 31 planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In the jhana meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states. In the jhanas, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.

All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.

What we think of as places are really just consciousness. .. no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. It gives an impression of feeling something 3D with textures and so on so forth. But there is no solid self-existing object there... it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of solidity.

 

 

Hi Longchen,

I can see the synchronization of emptiness view into your non-dual experiences --. Integrating view, practice and experience.  This is the essence of our emptiness nature and right understanding of non-dual experience in Buddhism that is different from Advaita Vedanta teaching.  This is also the understanding of why Everything is the One Reality incorporating causes, conditions and luminosity of our Empty nature as One and inseparable.  Everything as the One Reality should never be understood from a dualistic/inherent standpoint.

This also explains the nature of 'supernatural power' like clairvoyance and seeing things far away, etc.

 Indeed!  You can see the how the view, practice and experience leading to the understanding of non-locality in terms of views, practices and experience.
  

 

Stage 6. The nature of Presence is Empty

Not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’.  This is its nature.

 

When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.

-- the principle of conditionality

The self-luminous awareness from beginning-less time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.

Originally posted by longchen:

Hi Thusness,

Thanks so much for the help and advices. I am really appreciative.

After i have quitted my regular job 2 months ago, i actually increased my daily meditation hours.  Perhaps, this longer period of meditation actually helps.

Also what you said about not engaging in negative activities, this is so true. I noticed that i have to abhere to the precepts or else the karmic consequences manifest very fast! Somehow, it is like an invisible guideline. I have these negativities happening to me more than one time for me to see that abstaining from negativities is a requirement.

Once again, thanks so much. I will keep the 3 points in mind.

:)

 

 

Yes and that is precisely what I meant -- invisible guidelines.  They are no mere coincidence.  To experience the  truth, allow the workings to do the talking, no conceptualization needed.

 

One additional point:

 

'Unnaturalness' is mostly due to suppression.  It is the natural tendency of a conditioned mind to mistake 'suppression' as the 'solution'.  We should not 'think' of 'this or that'...all these are arbitary thoughts and does not help.

 

Once we overcome this misconception and let allow the latent deep to manifest, we will have new insight into 'naturalness'.  Let allow the latent deep to manifest and dissolve in non-dual presence with the wave like sensation.  But this practice of allowing must be accompanied with the strengthening of the 'wave momentum' by being luminously non-dual.  Strengthen and release and see them as one. When there is no suppression of the propensities and the dissolving is in action, new 'insight' of the meaning of 'naturalness' will arise.  Happy Journey! :)

 

 

 

Originally posted by longchen:

Hi Friend,

Just my understanding only. For discussion sake. Also, I find this topic very interesting.

What appears to us are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight sees some thing, the ears hear something, etc ,etc. There are not happening in some place. They are the arising of certain conditions.

To illustrate that what we experience is not standardised, we know that human beings see in term of colour range. Some animals are colour-blind. so they see differently. But none of us, is seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently.

Likewise, the 31 planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In the jhana meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states. In the jhanas, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.

All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.

What we think of as places are really just consciousness. .. no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. It gives an impression of feeling something 3D with textures and so on so forth. But there is no solid self-existing object there... it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of solidity.

 

 

Well said! :)

 

There is no 'the state'.  Simply empty luminousity manifesting according to whatever conditions are.  No here, no now, no 'I', no mine, no inner, no outer, no coming, no going anywhere.  All these are merely 'impressions'.

 

Free from all inherent and dualistic views.  Mere empty manifestation alone is.  Fearlessly and openingly give up, drop and let go....

 

Originally posted by longchen:

Want to add something here.

I think the description that i have written about 'rising and falling waves' sensation is not self-liberation yet. Just in case someone think it is.

There is a duration/time gap between rising and falling, although it is happening in an automatic manner...without the additional interferences of 'self'.

I am not there yet, but i feel that during self-liberation the duration should not be there. That is, rising and falling should be instantaneous without a rising part followed by the falling part. Perhaps there shouldn't even be a rising and falling. I dunno, i am just guessing here.

Hi Longhcen,

 

The wave like experience is a momentum of its own due to thorough dropping.  It is a 'sign' that the willingness to let go has sunk sufficiently deep in our inmost consciousness but it is not a sign of of deepening of 'non-dual insight'.

But that break-through of dropping is the result of non-dual insight.  We normally cannot let go.

 

Further deepening of non-dual insight that relates to 'self-liberation' (not necessary the way dzogchen sees it as I am not a dzogchen practitioner) may lie in the understanding of all 'already is'.  All is luminously clear and empty; self-liberates without a trace.  Previous thoughts liberates, current thought liberates.  Every propensity itself liberates when conditions are.  New tendency acquired and liberates when condition ripes.  It is rather the 'ever picking up of new imprints', but that does not deny or obscure its luminous-empty nature.

 

My 2 cents. :)

 

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

A new article by our moderator Longchen:

http://www.dreamdatum.com/new-phase.html

A new phase

It's been a while since I wrote the last article of this series. There are some new changes to my state of being. I will attempt to document them here.


Essentially, at this stage, I am beginning to experience the benefits of Enlightenment. It is a new phase but it is not the end. In fact, this phase simply marks the beginning of establishing non-duality into more tricky areas of life. It is just the beginning and many more challenges lie ahead.

Life as we know it, is extremely complex and varied in its manifestations. The 'Sense of self' overrides non-dual recognition most of the time and very very easily. It is an unconscious and automatic way of relating and dealing with life's complexities.

Initially, we establish non-dual awareness in the easier areas of life. This is mainly in the solitary based activities. They include activities such as walking, eating, seeing and sitting. During these non-dual moments, there is only the act of doing the activities without the feeling of volition. There is a luminous and spacious quality to them.

In this new phase, one is better able to 'maintain' non-dual awareness in other types of activities. The nondual recognition can be felt better amidst more complex activities. Life experience begins to take on a new way of seeing. It feels like life experience merely is, without seeing it through the sense of self. This is not an accurate translation but is the closest that I can think of. Viewing life through a 'sense of self' is different from that of experience via non-dual mode.


   

In dualistic experience, we tend to 'zoom' into what we see or percieve (with our senses) and immediately label certain portion of perceptions (including thought imageries) as 'objects' or 'subjects of attention'. In another word, we think that what we percieved as objects and 'point of attention' are self-existing objects, concepts or entities. The sense of self then arises to try to modify what is being 'labelled'. This creates the tension that is being felt at the bodily level, giving rise to the experience of discomfort. Once we have come to this point, non-duality will not be felt in real-time.

One point that I have observed: Non-dual awareness is more easily felt in an open space environment than in a enclosed one. This should not be the case, but it is. By right, there shouldn't be a difference at all as non-duality is the basis of reality. However, our mind is so used to cogniting dualistically that dualistic labelling is occuring in an unknowing manner. In an open space environment, the mind is aligned to the spacious nature of Non-dual Presence. In an enclosed environment, our mind will unknowingly and subconsciously labelling the features of that environment. We will tend to subconsciously label the walls and objects that are seen by the sight vision. This cause the mind to 'forget' the non-dual nature. However, in this phase of spiritual development, this subconscious habit of labelling is also lossing its grip, thus resulting in non duality being able to be experienced even within an enclosed environment.

Also, additionally, the 'sense of self' or egoic mind is beginning to lose its power to condition. There is the experience of rising and falling wave in one's consciousness. When a tension arise, the self-recognition of the tension allows it to fall away on its own accord. At times, when all bodily tensions fall away, there is no sense of being a physical form. This rising and falling wave sensation is different from using the mind to reason itself out of a predicament. When we use the mind to reason, it is characterised by the need to know an answer or find a solution. The desire in wanting to know the answer or finding a solution is itself a dualistic project of the mind onto a potential future scenario. There is no equanimity in that state.

In this new phase, one is also able to enter into a state of deep rest while fully awake. This includes stationary sitting and standing positions. The mind can come to a most blissful rest. This is one of the benefit of Enlightenment. The bliss is not something that a pre-enlightened mind can experience on a recurring basis.

One important point to note: We tend to think that Enlightenment is an attainment. This is not entirely true. Enlightenment is simply a concept. It is a non-attainment. The egoic mind or sense of self can only understanding way of relating and achieving in terms of striving. However, the state of non-dual awareness cannot be recognised in the striving. That is why Enlightenment cannot be achieved by striving. Therefore it is a non-attainment. Ironically, non-attainment is such a struggle to achieve.

OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.

For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

Yes Longchen,

It has been quite some time.  Just to share with you some of my views.

When non-dual insight arises initially, practitioner has found the ‘pathless path’ and is more capable of entering non-dual presence in daily movement naturally and effortlessly.  When non-dual presence is initially experienced beyond ‘sitting’ almost naturally and effortlessly, a ‘false impression’ will arise in practitioner that there is no need to ‘meditate’.  We should not mistake this as the non-meditation state.  This is partly due to a common misconception that if a person is able to experience non-dual presence while in movement, he should logically be able to sustain non-dual presence in ‘sitting’. In actual case, it is just the reverse; sitting becomes more of a problem.

Before the ‘arrival of the wave like sensation’ my experience is that we will not be able to ‘sit’ in great contentment in non-dual presence.  It is a ‘transparent-numb-like feeling accompanied with a wave-like sensation’ due to thorough dropping like the practice of the second door.  Practitioner no more engage in mental reasoning to explain anything.  There is a clear understanding it is futile to reason anything as it does not help more than creating more unrest.  We enter into great rest when there is complete willingness to drop even that ‘conscious’ portion.  Whether there is consciousness or no-consciousness is of no more importance.  The urge to remain subsides.

But bear in mind this ‘wave-like momentum’ is still subject to wearing out.  We should keep from engaging in negative activities or involve in negative conditions and continue to build on the thoroughness of dropping to complement this non-dual luminous presence.  I have bad experiences.  We must continue to sit and drop thoroughly.

From my experience, to go further working on the below 3 points will help:

1. To go further at this juncture, it is important to continue to drop, drop, drop and drop.  But this dropping will only produce its magical effect with the arising of non-dual insight, that there is no-self, the entire idea of self is learnt.

2. Not to engage in negative activities and conditions.  Work diligently in seclusion to build up the strength.

3. Next we need to build enough ‘merits’.  This is important but mostly not understood due to our inherent/dualistic mind; a mind that is ‘bond’ seeing things in terms of entities cannot understand that how by creating ‘merit’ can help in the progress of our non-dual luminous presence.  It is not within the framework of dualistic and inherent mind to understand.  It is not in understanding; it is in the actual workings. 

Just my 2 cents.  Hope it makes sense! :)

Missed these 2 posts. Very Good Stuff! I pieced them together as they should be treated as one.

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

Fearlessness plays a large part.

A person can stay in non-dual is partly due to the willingness to drop away defenses. The 'sense of self' strive to protect and preserve itself.

Presence can 'intuit' that nothing gets harmed even amidst apparent pain and destruction. This is not the same as a separate object that is not harmed despite apparent destruction. The latter description is I AM level understanding. Non-dual is different in that there is no concept of a separate 'true self/I AM' that is unharmed.

Fearlessness and willingness to drop once sank sufficiently deep into our inmost consciousness will result in the wave like sensation as described below.

I am beginning to experience the benefit of sustained non-duality and no-self. The mind automatically comes to a rest... be it walking, standing, sitting or any position. The rest and joy of no-self is not something that the un-enlightened can experience. Also, increasingly the egoic mind is losing its power to condition. When there is no subject-object split, the sense of suffering is greatly reduced... The egoic mind still can trick one into engaging into a 'fight with reality', but it is losing its power to sustain. When the egoic mind arouse a bodily tension and if it is not engaged for too long, the tension will self-release. This is what I meant as the experience of rising and falling waves. The body tension is also what give a person a kind of identification as the body. With the tension gone, there can be at times no sense of body. The process is certainly not complete... but I have entered a new phase... that is characterised by the egoic mind losing its charge. The strength of Presence and 'fearlessness in deconstruction' plays a crucial role

The wave is like spiritual tai-chi. A strength, a momentum of its own to auto-release whatever clingings. Once a practitioner experiences this 'wave like auto release', confident arises in the practitioner that there is the ability to substain non-dual clarity. Best go along with this phrase :

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

This is not a very accurate description as it is conceptual here. But the experience roughly translated to this. Dropping can still have a kind of knowingness or it can fully drop the conscious awareness too. The more dropping the more shiok :)

 

Dedicate enough time to meditate and sit with the willingness to completely drop even the 'conscious portion' to 'build' up this 'wave'. It is the strength that prevents one from falling back and it is due to the arising of this 'wave' that a practitioner is now 'willing' to drop that 'conscious portion' -- Psychological death overcome in due time. This is most important. :) However, a practitioner should not be over-confident at this junture...'attachment' will 'wear' out this 'wave'. Good Luck!

Also, sensation are just that. All part of the experience of being a specific species... in our case .. being human. The sensations are specific to human being.

By human, we tend to think in terms of physical form or entity. However, human is really an experience and there is no-self there. Just the experience conditioned by the karmic conditionings perculiar to the specie. For example, the feeling of feet against floor when walking, sound of chewing when eating, taste of salt are specific to the individual within the specie.

 

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

 

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!